The Wilder Place

We have difficulty understanding that God views things on a completely different level than we do. We cannot constrain him to our way of thinking. God, in fact, does use sickness for his glory. Listen to Paul's own struggle (that resulted in God's refusal to heal his sickness) and then Paul's resolution:

"Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

(2 Co 12:8-10 ESV).

Wow, great points, however I do disagree with you on some issues. Bible translations are very important but you must remember that the bible was written in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. All bibles today are translations. Jesus did not speak in Elizabethan English, so we must go back to the original language. In Isa 53: 4-5 look up each word in a strongs or other concordances: look at Isa 53: 3-5. Now, this is going to be short and sweet, I drive a truck for a living and your reply has so much meat in it, I am going to have to wait to go home and sift through each thought. But here is the good news:

Grief’s: 2483 choliy= malady, anxiety, disease, sickness

Sorrows: 4341 Makob: affliction, grief, pain, suffering

Transgression: 6588: Pesha= Rebellion, sin, trespass, breach of relationship

Iniquities: 5771:AVON Punishment of sin, fault, and error

Stripes: 2250 Chabbuwarah bruise, hurt, took fellowship with

Healed: 7495 Rapha: To mend, heal cure, cause to, thoroughly make whole

Isa 53: 3-5 and through out the book is prophetic look at what Jesus came to accomplish. Basically these verses say, God laid on Jesus the curse of the fall of Adam. He became a curse for you and me and took the transgression of Adam on himself so those that received Jesus as there savior could live on this earth in wholeness, completeness and free from the curse of the fall and the law. Jesus bore our sins, past, present and future, he bore sickness and disease, tore down the dividing line that was between God and man due to Adams passing on to us his cures. See Romans chapter 5. When you accept Jesus as your lord and savior you are accepting a whole new you. You are now in Christ. What he redeemed you from you have the covenant right to have NOW on this earth. Sickness and disease is a product of the devil and the curse. You are now redeemed from that curse. You are now a joint heir NOW in Christ. What he inherited you did. When he rose from the dead, he stripped the devil of his authority to attack or afflict you. Now, the devil comes at you, but when he tries to afflict you with sickness, you look to Matt 8: 17, I peter 2: 24 and all the healing scriptures in the bible that tell you that you have a right to healing. To further excite you. Check out det 28: 1-14, and 15-68. Where there is a curse, Jesus paid the price for you to be free from that curse. It says in verse 61 every sickness and disease not written in the law you have been redeemed from. See Gal 3: 13-14 and verse 29. There is so much to say, but we must stop mixing covenants. Jesus according to Heb 1: 1-5 is the express image or complete picture of God manifested in the flesh. You want to see the revealed will of God. Look in the gospels and see how he dealt with people. It made the religious mad. They wanted justice; Jesus showed grace, truth and mercy. Jesus paid a great price so we could walk in this life free from the bondages of the fall of Adam and Satan. Yes, there is a fight; however, you are ALWAYS COMING from the side of victory. The devil is defeated and Jesus gave you authority over him. That means when he tries to bring sickness, do not accept it and stand on your covenant rights. Your an heir and Jesus was the one who gave you your inheritance. As far as II corth 12 and Paul’s thorn in the flesh, it says a MESSENGER OF SATAN was sent to buffet Paul wherever he went. He was having revelations and it basically went like this. Everything is in Christ now, not the law. Its grace through faith not works and the religious leaders of that time persecuted Paul where ever he went. They stoned him, jailed him, beat him for his stand in Christ. That is explained in the mark 4 the parable of the sower. Persecution and afflictions arise for the sake of the word. It’s not God, it the devil trying to stop the good news. It’s Christ plus nothing. Paul sought God for relief and many people thought God blew him off. God said, hey Paul, quit trying to handle this in your own strength, MY GRACE (ABILITY) is sufficient in all situations. Paul got it, he then said, I glory in my light afflictions. When I am weak (in flesh), I am strong (in Christ) God was telling him, hey Paul. I am here, walk in my strength not your own. Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers them out of the all. Isa 54: 13-17 tells us that when fear, terror and destruction come against us ITS NOT BY ME. God deals with us through the spirit now, not the law, or curses. It’s a whole new covenant and you are now a new creature in Christ. We are to take this Good news to the world and into our own lives. There is so much on this subject. God is sovereign, but he will not violate men’s wills. He wishes all men to be saved but they won’t, why? They must choose. Sickness is the same way. God knows you and does not need to make you sick to get your attention. The problems come in when we ignore God, and through our own big piece of stupid allow sickness in. If we are struck with sickness, go to God, and know his will is healing. As far as saying well I know such and such, they prayed and did not get healed. I have found out over the last 50 years that you never know what people really believe. I have found as I said before. People believe God heals, but they have a hard time accepting it for themselves. They think they are to unworthy. The do not realize your healing is based in Isa 53: 3-5 not there good or bad deeds. Its about what Christ did for you and resting in that promise. Its not something you earn, its something that is yours in Christ.

Anyway, thanks for the time this is way to long.

Kevin

Hey Luci,

Sorry for the repeated post. I forgot you review them before they appear so if you got three of them, wipe the other two out.

thanks and God bless you,

Kevin

One more thing Luci. Go to www.awmi.net and read how Andrew Womacks son was raised from the dead after he was dead five hours and had turned black. God is the healer today and he was back then. Healing never passed away and it is for now. Sickness is not from God. If you had to be sick to give God glory, then why was Jesus never sick. If you are taking medicine, then you are thwarting the will of God if he put it on you. Stop taking medicine and let the will of God take its course. Please do not take this as sarcasm. Hosea 4: 6 tells us we perish for a lack of knowledge. The church today has been overwhelmed with tradition and untruths. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is called Jehova Rapha the healer. No where in the bible do you ever find where Healing passed away after the last apostle died. Church history proves that out.

God bless you and I love the exchange.

Kevin

Paul's Thorn In The Flesh
By Andrew Wommack

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor. 12:7-10)

This thorn in the flesh that Paul mentioned has been used and misused by Christians to justify submitting to nearly any problem that comes along. Satan has twisted this passage of Scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed? Let us examine this closely and find out exactly what Paul's thorn in the flesh was.

First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.

Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble. But there is a godly way of being exalted. First Peter 5:6 says, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." Those who submit (humble) themselves to God will be exalted by God. Paul was not speaking of exalting himself above measure through pride, but rather, the thorn came from Satan to keep Paul from being exalted by God in the eyes of the people. Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.

God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.

In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "The messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word "buffet" means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.

How did this demonic force continually strike Paul? Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10. Infirmity definitely does mean sickness and is used that way in 1 Timothy 5:23, but that is not the only meaning of the word. The number two definition is any lack or inadequacy. For instance, Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." In this case, the context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather not knowing what to pray for. Our finite minds are an infirmity, or an inadequacy.

If we look at the context of Paul's thorn in the flesh, we find that infirmity does not mean sickness in 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10. In 2 Corinthians 11:30, Paul uses the exact terminology of "glorying in infirmities" that is used just a few verses later in speaking about this thorn. In the eleventh chapter he had just finished listing what those infirmities were. In verses 23-29, he lists such things as imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, and stonings; none of these speak of sickness. Verse 27 mentions weakness and painfulness, which some have tried to make mean sickness, but it is just as possible he could have been weary and suffered painfulness from such things as being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). All these things listed in 2 Corinthians 11 refer to persecutions as infirmities. So, in context, Paul's thorn was a demonic angel or messenger sent by Satan which continually stirred up persecution against him. This is also verified by three Old Testament references (Num. 33:55; Josh. 23:13 and Judg. 2:3), where people are spoken of as being "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes."

Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient. We are not redeemed from persecution, and Paul later stated that when he said in 2 Timothy 3:12, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Most gladly, therefore, he gloried in persecutions, reproaches, necessities, and distresses that the power of Christ might rest upon him (2 Cor. 12:9). The word "glory" is an old English word which means to have dominion over or command. It is used in Exodus 8:9 where Moses told Pharaoh to glory over him, or command him, when to destroy the frogs. So when Paul spoke of glorying in these infirmities or persecutions, he was speaking of victory even in the midst of continual harassment.

In Acts 14:19, Paul was stoned and left for dead, but God raised him up, and the next day he walked at least twenty miles into the next town and started preaching again. The Lord did not stop the persecution, but God's strength was certainly made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9). Can you imagine what those that stoned him must have thought? They could see Paul's humanity in the cuts and bruises, but they could also see the supernatural strength of God flowing through him. "For when I am weak, then am I strong" (verse 10).

There are two other passages of Scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the Gospel to these Galatians through an infirmity of the flesh, and in verse 15, he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes. But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease. They were the result of having just been stoned. He also says in verse 13 that his infirmity was "at the first," which leaves the impression it was only a temporary thing that he recovered from.

The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters, and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.

The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things. James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." We have to resist, or actively fight against, the devil and the things he brings, to see them flee. Satan has used traditional teaching about Paul's thorn to bring many Christians to a place of submitting to him. But, praise God, you shall know the truth and the truth, shall set you free.

Luci,
I was so glad to see this posted. There is an excitement in my heart as the GOOD NEWS of the gospel is going forth. People of the world, the lost and the people of the church, the saved must know the true and living God and how much he loves us. Psalm 23 is a psalm we all know but do you realize the implication of that Psalm? Everything he talks about is here on earth. There is no valley of death in heaven. In our darkest hour, God leads us to green pastures and still waters. And then, he prepares a table of provision for us right in the midst of our enemies. All we have to do is sit down and partake. When we get to heaven we will not have to be concerned with sickness, disease, fear, terror, however its here on earth that God provides his Grace to us to live as a light in this dark world. You should now begin to see that Romans 2: 4 is the truth. It’s the goodness of God that leads to repentance. If you think God is killing your kids, making you sick, bring calamity into your life, you may serve him, but it will be out of fear. However, when you see what a good God we serve, would you not out of love give your whole life to him while you live on this earth?? Would you not want to tell everyone we serve a good God? People will run to God when they find out how much he loves you and me and only thinks good things toward us. I corth 13:6-9 is the love chapter. However, have you ever thought of it in this light? Where it says Love suffers long, is kind, ect, ect and knowing God is love, guess what??? That is how God thinks toward you and I. Now here is the shocker, he also thinks that way toward the lost. No, we are living in the church age where God is revealing himself to men through his Son Jesus Christ. Gods not mad at you, the world or anyone. It saddens him to know people will reject him all the while he is holding out his hand of love toward them .Again, God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOVER should believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his son into the WORLD to condemn it, but to SAVE it through Jesus Christ. Now, as a born again spirit filled believer, do you think he loves you any less than the world??? Jesus paid a great price for you and I to live as his Ambassadors for him on this earth. Let’s be that Ambassador and tell the world the Gospel of Reconciliation. (II Corth 5: 17-21). The religious, the lost, the homosexual, the pervert, the murderer, the gossip, the greedy person all need to know how much God loves them. They also need to know the consequence of continuing to live in their lost condition, however, present to them the work God did for them through his son Jesus of Nazareth. God used his son as a scapegoat like the Old Testament priest did. They laid there hands on the scape goat and transferred the sins of the nation on to that Goat and sent it into the wilderness where it died with that sin to its account. Unfortunately that was good for just a year. Jesus died once for all mankind, took the consequence of sin for the world and by accepting that sacrifice you are now justified and declared righteous forever. It’s a free gift and you can not work for it, JUST ACCPET IT. ITS FREE. God put the sin of the World on his Son so when you accept that work you will no longer be under wrath. Everyone quotes Romans 3: 23 and tells you All have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. That’s true, the whole world is in Adam, however verse 24 is the kicker. All are justified in Christ. So, accept Jesus and become in Christ. You’re justified in the sight of God by accepting his sin offering to the world. It was his son! There is freedom for us in Christ.

God bless you,

Kevin
Truck55@cox.net

Kevin,

Someone has taught you mistruth, which sounds nice and comforting, but is not at all biblically based and does not honor God. Your interpretation of the passage in Isaiah is misleading. While you are correct that Isaiah was written in Hebrew, and that it is helpful to consult Hebrew lexicons to enhance one’s understanding, one may not conclude from mere word definitions the interpretation of a Hebrew text. That is just not good exegesis, for it does not take into account grammar or syntax, let alone context, all of which, just as in the English language, must be considered when determining the intended message. I assume that you do not have a working knowledge of the Hebrew language and therefore you are constrained to translations (and I recommend more literal ones, such as the NASB or the ESV) and various other English helps to gain a full understanding of the text.

Isaiah 53 does not teach that a believer in Jesus Christ will never suffer from physical illness. In no way can we approach that text (in Hebrew or in a good translation) with a healthy hermeneutic and come away with such an interpretation. It just is not there. The text does not support the interpretation, the apostles did not view the scripture that way and the early Church Father’s understood Isaiah 53 much differently than you have described. Except a few modern heretical movements, your interpretation is without support. It is erroneous.

And the better translation in this instance of the Hebrew word ‘choliy’ (חֳלִי) is ‘grief’.

Wommack’s interpretation of Paul in 2nd Corinthians is equally flawed. For one, Paul was not given the thorn for “an abundance of revelations” but rather, as Paul said, “lest [he] should be exalted above measure” which is a direct inference to sinful pride (above measure – more than is right). Paul was in danger of being exalted because of the revelations God had shown him. For other’s their pride might have different sources, but it is an applicable verse. All that aside, this verse still fundamentally undermines Wommack’s conclusions because it proves at least one instance when God allowed an infirmity to torment a believer for God’s own God-honoring purposes, and refused to heal.

Wommack has abandoned the clear and wholesome teaching of the Word of God and has, in its place, promoted lies and half-truths, loosely basing his teaching on the Bible. It is not true, and you would do well to avoid his teaching.

By the way, what do you do with the hard fact that we all eventually physically die- most of the time because of sickness? There is one time for every single person – including you and me, where God refuses to heal a sickness. If Wommack’s interpretation is correct, and played out to its logical conclusion, man will physically (in the body that you have now) live on and on and not face death. Of course, that conclusion contradicts many passages in the New Testament.